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Wednesday, March 29, 2006

The Value of Religion

Recently I have been having some very interesting discussions about the value of religion. So as not to further hi-jack the very worthy blog of Reverse_Vampyr (and as a not-so-subtle means of "borrowing" some of his readership), I'm starting a thread devoted to the topic.

(Note: To see the discussion in the first link I provided, you actually have to click the comments. Laborious, I know, but I couldn't figure out how to link the comments directly, sorry.)

The meat of the post will be in the comments as y'all bring in your opinions and p.o.v.s and we sling 'em around and hash it all out, preferably in an amicable and friendly manner. However, to get things started I'd like to share a bit about myself and where I'm coming from. For those of you who simply do not give a damn, feel free to jump straight into the comments section and let the wrestlin' of ideas begin! For the rest of you, here's a bit about why I value religion:

First off, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that while I am a member of an organized religion, I'm more spiritual than religious. Basically, when it comes to actually actively participating in organized religion, I suck. However, I've been spiritually inclined since before I can actually remember (literally), with my own personal form of Christianity being the meat of my spirituality the entire time. Now, there are those who'd claim this is a matter of nurture, not nature. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's just not so. I didn't grow up in a Christian home, and while my Mom did become more of a Christian (born-again variety) as I grew into my teen-age years, I basically rejected her religion in favor of my own brand of faith. I can literally count the times I've attended church with both my parents on one hand. Actually, with one finger. Both my parents attended my first baptism, which was by my own choice and was with the Lutheran faith. Now, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

That being said, organized religion has been of great value to myself and my family in many different ways. When I first started investigating religion, I was rather lost. My parents' marriage wasn't exactly a happy one; a fact that I was hardly aware of and didn't understand at all until BAM! my parents got divorced nearly two years after I got married. But, when I was growing up, basically I didn't feel I had a whole lot of people I could trust. It wasn't true, but that's how I felt. (This also happened a few months after a rather traumatic experience, which I will only go into detail upon request.) As such, I found the welcoming atmosphere of the local Lutheran church to be very beneficial. It was an exhilarating experience to actually be able to sit down with adults and talk about anything and have them actually listen. I will readily grant that this could have been accomplished WITHOUT religion being involved, but for me that wasn't the way it happened.

Now, in my adult life, the main value of religion has been the community it has provided me and my family with, something the LDS church is actually very good about most of the time. For instance, the day I had to go in to deliver my third child through emergency inducement, it was a very loving friend from my church that drove Mark and I to the hospital at 5am. She, along with several other members of the church and my Mom, watched our two older children for us so Mark could be with me through this ordeal. Not to mention the fact that we were right in the middle of a move to our new, three-bedroom apartment. They were helping Mark pack (because I had neither the strength, nor the doctor's permission to do so) and clean in preparation for this move when I came home in tears to tell Mark that our baby's life was in danger while in utero and that I'd be going in the next morning for emergency "evacuation" procedures. All things being equal, this was a very rough time for us as a family and the ONLY way we got through it was through the grace of God manifest in the helping hands and loving hearts of our dear church family.

I could go on, but I think I've established where I'm coming from, at least well enough for the sake of discussion. I'd just like to say, in closing, that to me, the value of spirituality and the value of religion are two separate matters and I've only touched on the value of religion, not going into the value of spirituality at all. However, in this thread feel free to discuss both with equal measure. For now, I think this is depth enough for me... I wouldn't want to be accused of proselytizing, now would I?


At 3/29/2006 5:27 PM, Blogger hewhocannotbenamed said...

hello =) thanx for sharing your story.

i guess for me, i see that as the value of community and friendship. there are plenty of communities that will give people the same love and support without god playing any role in it.

i guess for me, i never liked the idea of heaven and hell. there are good people in this world, that are moral, upstanding individuals, that treat others with love and respect and don't believe in god or the church. yet most religious people will say those same people are going to end up in hell because they don't give all the credit to god. and i dont agree with that.

i realize the benefit of having a religious community that loves and supports you, but you can take god out of the equation and still find the same love and support, in my opinion.

like i said over at RV's site, i'm just talking things out, and in no way am i trying to change who you are or where you come from or belitlle you because you have faith.

thnx for the discussion =)


At 3/29/2006 5:28 PM, Blogger hewhocannotbenamed said...

belittle even

At 3/29/2006 5:51 PM, Blogger reverse_vampyr said...

My God can beat up your god. :P

Thus sums up the history of religious wars since the beginning of time.

I'm all for spirituality and having a relationship with your Creator. It's just that when we - as believers in whatever faith we happen to choose - get together in groups, too many of us wind up acting stupid and creating ridiculous rules to impose on each other... called religion.

At 3/29/2006 5:59 PM, Anonymous David said...

Taken from my own personal sampling of people I know, most people go to church because of the reason you go - for community. The rest go either because they have some sort of hardwire in their brain (which bears no relevance to the spiritual nature or community nature of the church), or people are still afraid of their parents who told them "you're going to hell if you don't go to church".

Of that majority I spoke of, I wish they'd just admit that to themselves, so we wouldn't have to argue so much about the war in Iraq (on a religious level). Because when it comes down to it, an opposition to the war (on a religious level) is akin to a dig against their big social club, and to Betty and Joe, the ones that drove them to the hospital in the middle of the night.

I can understand their anger. After all, these are nice people, and nobody disses my peeps!!

Now, if they'd just publicly come out and make that clarification, I think I could bring myself to go.

But no.

I gotta go listen to the guy in the goofy robes who's never been anywhere in his life, telling me about the meaning of the universe, and what Jesus REALLY was trying to say, and telling me that we've all got to stop drinking caffeinated liquids.

And everybody sits quietly and nods their head, and when it's all over, they walk outside and give everybody a hug and give thanks to Betty and Joe for taking them to the hospital, and they all go grab a cup of coffee.

Most people are ok with that. Not me. I think it's hypocritical.

I dunno why I feel that way. I just like walking what I talk. And if preacherman says "caffeine is a sin!"... well then, I guess that's not a club I should be goin' to every Sunday.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no saint. I have a lot of trouble walking what I talk. But if I'm going to take an oath, and wear the Boy Scout uniform, then I want to do right by what the uniform represents.

So I guess, boiled down, the comment is that religion has value, as long as you're not hypocritical about it. I don't care what symbol is tacked up on your wall. If you practice what you preach, and don't waste my time in trying to tell me what Truth is, or what specific incantation I must recite in order to get to heaven, then we're cool.

At 3/29/2006 6:18 PM, Blogger Lisa Renee said...

I guess I'm strange (not that is a surprise) I don't get involved the community aspect of my Church, I go to Mass for the Mass, how attending the Mass makes me feel as far as my relationship with God. I do some charity type events for the elderly and other things but I keep my relationship with other church members at a minimum. I know my priest as well as some of the congregation members since I've been going there for quite some time but for me it's a part of my personal relationship with God.

Part of it is I don't like the way some things have happened by both the Vatican and our local diocese yet I keep that separate from my relationship with God. It may get to the point where I can't comfortably separate that and I won't be able call myself a Catholic anymore but I don't see the necessity in being told by other congregation members that I "have to" or "can't" do something. That's between me, God and in confession my Priest.

Even stranger yet, given those of you who know how political I am, my church should not be political. A church should be a place where all are welcome not a selected few nor should anyone be looked down on. None of us are perfect and none of us have all of the answers. I have sinned, and I probably will sin again many times before I die.

I do however have a rather large list of questions that I'm looking forward to going over with God when I get the chance.


At 3/29/2006 7:49 PM, Blogger David Schantz said...

Stephanie, Why did I know your a member of the LDS Church? My wife and I were both Baptized (LDS) two years ago this coming August. Both of us grew up Lutherans and both of us had many questions about organized religion (your going to hell if you don't think like us)and spirituality. Because of my wifes health problems and my strange work hours we are unable to attend church regulary but we do study the scriptures and TRY to live the way God wants. I feel life is a test and I am sure I'am not quite ready for the final exam.

God Bless america, God Save The Republic.

At 3/29/2006 7:52 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

hewhocannotbenamed (yes, I like that much better, so I'll even type it all out!),

You're welcome.

"...the value of community and friendship...

True, however people who are involved in religious communities, in my experience, are usually there for each other more often. With the exception for family, church family and a few select friends (who also happen to be religious) my husband and I have been virtually abandoned by our past "community" members as soon as our boys' special needs made themselves apparent. So, while I grant that other communities can provide the same support, when times are really tough they're not always there...which is, obviously, when people need them to be there the most. So, I guess that experience colors my outlook on the matter as well.

"i never liked the idea of heaven and hell."

That's how I became a Latter-Day Saint. For me, it was NOT okay that a man like Ghandi would be sent to hell for not being a Christian, when the type of Christians he was exposed to were not those who actually had any right to be preaching a faith they didn't practice. A tenet of the LDS faith is that JC paid for ALL sins, whether people believe in His name or not and that only those who know Him and then turn their back on him can be sent to outer darkness, i.e. hell. Those who do believe and practice the faith get closer to God in heaven, but we all get to go. It's difficult to explain, mostly because I haven't really delved into deep doctrine yet (or possibly ever), but it's consoling for me.

"in no way am i trying to change who you are or where you come from"

Same for me, Zach. Like I've said, I don't proselytize. That's just not who I am, but I do like to share what I know.

Thank you for coming here to continue our discussion!

At 3/29/2006 8:02 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...


" get together in groups, too many of us wind up acting stupid and creating ridiculous rules to impose on each other"

I was there for a long time, and still sort of am, so I understand where you're coming from. However, I have to point out the same is true whenever any group that discusses ideas gets together without conscientious introspection. Politics for example, or even something as simple as a PTA...

"Harper Valley PTA" ring a bell for anyone?

(This is where Stephanie's total ignorance to the realm of on-line music really causes a problem.)

At 3/29/2006 8:09 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...


"If you practice what you preach, and don't waste my time in trying to tell me what Truth is, or what specific incantation I must recite in order to get to heaven, then we're cool."

I'll put it to you this way, and this is only for me. I practice what I preach, but that doesn't mean I follow all the tenets and rules of my church. Nor am I going to tell anyone else to follow are rule that goes against their conscience. But, I do understand your point.

It's such a frequent problem, there's even a name for it. They're called Sunday Christians. They go to church on Sunday, but the rest of the week their shmucks. Despite my inability to practice all the tenets of my faith, I'm not one of those people. I keep the heart of Christ's message in mind, and try to live up to it. But that's a matter of my spirituality, not my religion. And that's the clearest way I can make the distinction.

As for the war in Iraq on a religious level... I'm not sure who's making those arguments, because other than the Muslim side of it (Jihad), I've not heard those arguments.

Again, thank you for carrying the discussion over here!

At 3/29/2006 8:22 PM, Blogger hewhocannotbenamed said...

do you wear the holy mormon underwear? :) just kidding ;)

At 3/29/2006 8:29 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...


"I guess I'm strange..."

You're allowed. Actually, I prefer it that way!

"...for me it's a part of my personal relationship with God."

And that's fine, too! To put into perspective for why it's not that way for me...

I have three (sometimes four) little boys who are all very wiggly. They can't understand what's being said and for the most part have an attention span that maybe will carry them through the interlude music. To clarify the image, last time I attended church I had a very grumpy look on my face the entire time, which a few people commented on. I explained, rather briefly since I had to chase down two of my children who were running wild now that services were over, that I was fighting with Ben the entire time since he kept trying to bite, repeatedly. It's very difficult to feel the spirit through all the every-day reality stuff, which is why I'd rather stay up late and study my scriptures after the boys go to bed.

"That's between me, God and in confession my Priest."

Agreed. Practicing your faith (any faith) through the dictates of your own conscience with introspection and thought is, to me, the key.

"A church should be a place where all are welcome..."

I agree that all should be welcome and church is not the place for politics.

I remember a time, before any of the boys were diagnosed, when people were talking behind our backs about how improperly our boys behaved in church. I had no defense against this on my own, and really had no way to combat this notion that I was somehow an awful parent. However, our Bishop (leader of a congregation) knew from a spiritual perspective that we were trying and that there was more to what was going on than there appeared (besides, such stuff didn't belong in church anyway, and he didn't like that talk like that was happening at all). At one point when one of my sons was being particularly disruptive (screaming at the top of his lungs because he didn't want to sit still), this Bishop segued out of his talk (sermon) to address the matter, and without mentioning me by name but looking straight at me said that they wanted all the children in the service, whether they were crying or not they were part of this church and belonged with the rest of us and NOBODY should be excluded. Not verbatim, but that was the gist of the message. Funny how after that nobody talked behind our backs any more.

"I do however have a rather large list of questions ..."

Oh, don't we all!

At 3/29/2006 8:31 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...


No, actually I don't. Because I smoke and drink alcohol and coffee-derivatives and tea, I'm not "temple worthy." The temple is where you go to get "holy mormon underwear" and I've never been.

At 3/29/2006 8:57 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

David Schantz,

"Why did I know your a member of the LDS Church?"

Probably the BoM being listed as one of my favorite books...

"I feel life is a test and I am sure I'am not quite ready for the final exam."

I had a lot of the same questions and the LDS missionaries were the first who didn't answer "Because that's just the way it is..." I remember a rather heated discussion with my Mom where I finally ended it with something to the effect of "If God's so unfair then I don't WANT to believe in him!"

The LDS faith certainly provides people at any level with room to grow, which I find rather appealing even if I am one who has plenty of room for growth.

To help describe for you where I'm at with my relationship with the church I'll put it to you this way:

I know the Book of Mormon is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet. I know Gordon B. Hinkley is God's living prophet on Earth.

I bet you can pick out what's missing.

At 3/29/2006 8:58 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

Thank y'all for coming by...I can almost believe my stat counter isn't a lying piece of mechanical mayhem!

At 3/29/2006 9:15 PM, Blogger hewhocannotbenamed said...

a good friend of mine would probably have some interesting discussions with you. he used to be mormon, but him and his father are no longer invloved with the church in any way. but his mother and three sisters are all still heavily involved in the church. his parents are divorced now.

i have a funny memory of he and myself and a few other friends coming out of a bar one afternoon in berkley, piss drunk, to about 3-4 young mormon missionaries on their bikes. my friend warren (the ex-morman) proceeded to follow after them yelling at the top of his lungs JOSEPH SMITH WAS A F'ing LIAR!!! i've never seen those dudes pedal so fast =)

At 3/29/2006 9:21 PM, Blogger hewhocannotbenamed said...

i think that's why i've always understood more of the eastern religion/philosophies a little better for their ability to find humor in life, and even laugh at themselves at times.

At 3/29/2006 9:43 PM, Blogger Lisa Renee said...

Stephanie, I didn't go to Mass as often when mine were young. It felt like I was going just for the appearance factor of it because you can't get much from a service when you are spending the majority of it dealing with the kids. Thankfully the Saturday afternoon mass was less formal and it seemed they behaved better than Sunday mornings. Yet for me most times I would go alone and leave them home with their father. The concept of going to mass alone never bothered me, it still doesn't because I'm not really alone.

So while I wanted them to experience Church, I also didn't always want them to experience it with me (lol). As they got older some of them wanted to go with me, some didn't. They have however each made their own decision as to what type of a relationship they want with God.

As to the ability to laugh at yourself, hewhocannotbenamed, I don't think that is a trait that can be identified with any religion. I laugh at myself often though I probably make those I live with laugh more at times.


At 3/29/2006 10:19 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

For some reason I'm having trouble accessing my main page now...


I understand. Some people fall away from the church. Sometimes it's minor stuff. Sometimes it's major. And I'm not one who thinks there's only one way to find God.

I investigated some of the Middle Eastern religions, but I never got very for into Buddhism or Daoism. Now, I usually ask David Remer my Buddhism questions. I'm kind of an equal-opportunity religion lover. I think there's good things about all the different religions. Even animism has some upsides, though it's more difficult for me to understand as a religion per se.

One of the things I really like about my church, even though it's something far too few LDS honestly take to heart is in our Articles of Faith (written by Joseph Smith).

Article 11 says:

We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

If more people respected that, then the whole religion=war correlation would be history.

At 3/29/2006 10:24 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

We've gone alone, both my husband and I. However, I want my children to be able to attend church peacefully. Then again, sometimes I just want to sleep.

Oh, and I'm still too proud to just bundle them up in the jammies and take them like they are...getting everybody ready and dressed nice is often exhausting.

Last time we tried going to church, but ten minutes before we left our youngest decided to smear the contents of his diaper all over himself (while I was putting the finishing touches on myself...make-up, that is). I was in tears, because I'd spent the last two hours getting everybody ready but in the end I just couldn't go. (My husband took the two oldest ones and I stayed home with the two youngest.) It was a disaster all the way around.

At 3/29/2006 10:42 PM, Blogger hewhocannotbenamed said...

stephanie, i was referring to far eastern religion/philosophy ie taoism, buddhism, not middle eastern (islam) which i haven't read too much about.

and lisa renee, when it comes to taoism and buddhism, they definitely have a strong sense of humor and the ability to laugh at the world and themselves, much more so than any western religion i've ever had experience with...

'If more people respected that, then the whole religion=war correlation would be history.'

that was pretty much my whole point in our discussion. but like you said, far too many actually follow that thought process when it comes to their religion..

At 3/29/2006 11:15 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

" was referring to far eastern religion/philosophy ie taoism, buddhism"

Yes, I understood that. I just have had less of an opportunity to investigate those, since an authorative text is difficult to find, if there is such a thing.

"far too many "

Far too few, but yeah. See, if there hadn't been so much misunderstanding as per my thinking you were agreeing with Holly, it'd never have gotten this far. Then again, I probably wouldn't have gotten you to my site then!

At 3/31/2006 1:17 PM, Blogger Me4Prez said...

I grew up Catholic, but it wasn't a strict version of it. My grandma was devout and took us to church with her, but she never forced anything on us. I also had some good priests and nuns who let me use my intellect to find my spiritual way instead of telling me what God wanted.

I am not a practicing member any longer because the Church I see now is not the one I believed in. Luckily, I have started to get more interested in Buddhism and Hinduism. I think Buddhism is more my style.

At 3/31/2006 4:47 PM, Blogger Stephanie said...

Buddhism is cool, from what I know of it. A tranquil sense of spirituality, such as Buddhism offers, always has its assets and is certainly a valuable way to strengthen your soul.

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